Bootlegging: The Saga Continues..........Part 2

[natturner187]

Peace,
This is a follow up from a discussion that 'Minister8-Ball'sarted, but ended abruptly.
I am in the NYC area, and can tell you , many items are bootleg. Bootlegging has been around for a long time. Many things that are bl probably will slip under the radar of most keen eyes. China was found to be a recent manufacturer of bl products. Bootlegging usually exists because of the high cost or unavailability of a wanted item and in our communities, a way to have a somewhat clean hustle (as opposed to selling drugs, robbery, etc).
That being said is part of the dilemma that exists with this issue. The advent of the internet is now becoming more popular as a means of purchase ,compared to over 5 years ago.
As I thought about this discussion, I heard several points:
1- Our scholars/ leaders were being robbed of money from the sale of bl.
2- Vendors selling bl material were providing distribution and exposure that might not otherwise be attained by the sources of the original material.
3- Disunity and possible negative discord between the opposing sides.
I am a fairly new member to LIB, but have been involved with Black struggle for many many years. I am trained to listen to hear the question , and what are the motives for the question when one is raised. I thought it was interesting that this topic was addressed by some with a passion that should exist in our neighborhoods to correct some real critical issues, but instead, it seems to hint of a touch of crabs in a barrel. I myself am a musician, and a starving one at that (lol), but I can under/ overstand both views.
What comes to mind is that many vendors of bl products under sell products to stimulate sales, most do not sell especially dvds for the same high prices ($25 or more) as the legit dvds.
I heard the argument that scholars have studied extensively and etc,etc.
But most of them have degrees, and teach in universities, and do live lectures. Is that money not enough ?
I am not saying they should not have a right to make money, but many before these have spoken , and given us valuable lessons and even their lives for the liberation of our people. Many of our true leaders and our people have given of themselves, without seeking a dime, but may have asked for donations to make certain events possible. That is the true spirit of our Struggle. Harriet Tubman didn't charge folk to take them to freedom. She did it for the love of her people.
In Cuba, medical education is made free for even us here as Black folk, with the stipulation that we bring our skill back home and serve the poor amongst us.
1- Is it necessary to charge for information that is supposed to be liberating our people? Yes there must be some cost, but getting back to what I said about availability. If more people can afford products at a lower cost, then more vendors can purchase legit, and more of the masses can purchase, and we all profit. The sale of one item might bring less profit, but you still profit from having more buyers.
Some have posted names of people to create an atmosphere similar to that which preceded Malcolm X's assassination.
There are other more important issues our Brothers need to be going to war about, than with each other regarding bootlegging.
Peace

[natturner187]

Peace Charles Stephenson ,
Thanks for joining the dialog . The last 4 days we have dealt with several issues, and some possible solutions. If you raed all the replies this should be clear.
Question : if your child is dying and your neighbor has a cure (information,knowledge, that can advance Black folks condition) but refuses , or tells you he wants $100 for it, and you do not have $100. Do you let you child die, or do you TAKE (buy bootleg) what you need to save your child's life?
That said, go back to all that has been said in this discussion , and take a deep breath and reply.

[Kameelean]

I have several comments. The first is to the sistah, Aisha. In my experience, the brothas selling bootleg CONSCIOUS videos are very knowledgeable about the information they are selling and have very definite, clear-thinking assessments and comments about the materials. They have their own thought formulations about the material they sell. If it were just a hustle, they wouldn't care and would only focus on the money and making a deal to sell as many as possible. These brothas are NOT about any "bling". The blinging brothas I've come across don't know anything about these videos or the "scholars" who share/sell/make profit off of this knowledge.

Also, the people I know who purchase these lower priced copies do so because they cannot find or afford the other, and they buy bootleg across the board—mainstream blockbusters as well. They are always trying to cut corners to save what little money they have.

Some posts have seem filled with anger. My comment to you is this: Our suppressors did everything they could to prevent us from gaining knowledge (of self and of the world). In many ways, they still do.

Bootleggers reproduce materials and sell to the public for a lower price than the original source. If you want to prevent the masses from gaining free (via bootleggers) access to the information that YOU created, produced and wish to "control" the sales of... I think you should do that.

However, don't join the oppressors in a self-assigned crusade to prevent the public—and your own people—from posting videos on YouTube who are doing so, not for profit, but to share information and get the word out to those who would otherwise not know this knowledge existed.

This smacks of censorship, a tool that the White Power structure uses to keep the public uninformed. Why on earth would you choose to emulate this behaviour?

This is a tragic disconnection from our Afrikan nature that is to share knowledge as in our passed on saying "each one teach one". It is our European, brainwashed minds and assimilated souls that allow us to take on the characteristics and behaviours of our oppressors.

Finally, I completely agree with the brotha Manu_heru who said it beautifully:
"knowledge is free! there is no scholar who has originated any of this so called knowledge! we all build off of one another... we all stand on the shoulders of the giants before/beneath us! charging for knowledge is a european concept! scholars should only take donations!!!"

[manu_heru]

give thanks kameelean, for your eloquent offering!

we must get back to our afrikan mentality of sharing and giving. we and ours as opposed to me and mine. this is where true power is hidden! the power of one!

give thanks brotha nat, for re-opening this important discussion.

brotha taalib kweku el amin and brotha charles stephenson claimed that our sons and daughters peddling discounted and bootlegged scholarly dvds etc are not in alignment of maat.

well, i would ask the two of you brother's to reconsider from the perspective that the bootleggers of this type of material are not extraordinary role models for out youth and COMPLETELY in maat, for the following reasons:

• they are devoted to the positive development of others! this is a most selfless service!!
• they are pursuing a purposeful life rather than selfish or materialistic!
• they are rejecting the modes of this degraded society (capitalism)
• they are instruments of order restoration (via the dissemination of scholarly works that aid in such)
• by making these resources available to the poor/strugglin'/etc they are creating a balance that does not exist in this classed society.
• they teach the truth
• they are poor righteous teachers
• they are givers rather than takers

and as has been stated many times in this discussion, there is no evidence that bootlegging is at all stealing, no evidence that is subtracts from a scholars profits,(the opposite may be true - advertising), and if it does, great! capitalism is evil as it is the very fuel for oppression!

we must get back to our afrikan mentality of sharing and giving. we and ours as opposed to me and mine. this is where true power is hidden! the power of one!
noone can own another person (slavery), noone can own land (colonialism/capitalism), and noone can own thoughts/ideas! intellectual property is a self contradiction, it is an oxymoron, it has never existed. there is only one source. one source!

~manu~

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

No comment! I'll let the experts speak and you have.

I hope neither of you work until you lose your vision, researching the history of this world, our people and our contributions, then cannot afford eye surgery because your own people won't purchase your work; be marginalized by the institution that employs you; be denied tenure because you are exposing their b.s.; be ridiculed by your own people because you know the true-story; exist barely above poverty levels and still contribute to the uplift of your people; spend your own dollar to take this message of healing truth around the country to your people, even when they refuse to buy your artlcles, books, and tapes; then listen to some folk talk about you shouldn't even think about being reimbursed for your time and effort. Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now.

Such entitlement! Must be something special. All the flowery language in the world cannot cover up this deceit.

In the future, leave my name out of your discussions. I see the world through a different set of lenses and I'll go out believing that taking someone else's work and profiting from it for your own selfish needs, and not paying for it, is thievery.

I have given over 100 lectures for free and I'm on the low end for African-centered lecturers. I edited 5 books for different people and never asked for a dime because we knew the message needed to be available, yet knowing our people would be hesitant to buy the books. We've given away hundreds of copies of various books to students whose parents would not step up and help their child advance their knowledge of themselves and their people.

To you be your ways and to me be mine. I don't steal from Afrikans! If I sell someone's product(s), which I have done for over 3 decades, I pay them their asking price. Fair exchange, no robbery!

Peace go with you!

[manu_heru]

brotha taalib,

i respect you and your work greatly! in fact, it is a great honor for you be grace us with your presence and wisdom!! as you can see, i am only a youth, a student, constantly learning from elders such as yourself.

in fact, we do not differ in views so much. i simply advocate fairness/balance by paying what one can... i would not advocate that everyone seek only bootlegged materials. only that bootlegging has its place, and its own space in certain environments -- in a non-harmful way.

blessings,

~manu~

[natturner187]

Peace Manu,
As you reiterate the original intention of this discussion was / is to give our brothers and sisters another view that might be overlooked because of closed dimensional view of our common plight in the belly of the beast.
Our people are in the streets everyday, and street vendors are bringing light from the mountain , and delivering it to the masses in the valley. The vendors are obviously effective at what they do , otherwise why the big fuss. Once again, as you have suggested , if there can be a meeting of the minds, everyone of us can benifit. The producers get more sales, the vendor (bootlegger) gets to purchase legit from the producer, the prices are affordable to the masses, Our community grows from the 'Outformation'.
Thank you so much for your focus and input.

[Kameelean]

Brotha El Amin,

100+ free lectures, books, etc. is a noble contribution to our people.

Your end statement speaks to some of damage that has been done to our people. Why are many of us hesitant to buy books that deliver positive messages about our people? Why are many parents not helping their their children know themselves? Was it always like this? What has happened to us and why? (rhetorical)

Brotha Nat spoke of free materials at libraries. However even if there were great libraries filled with knowledge about the history, accomplishments and struggles of Afrikan people, how many of us would be lining up to get in? Only those who are conscious—the "choir"? This is evidence of the damage that has been done TO our people and exactly why it is critical that those of us who know constantly push the message and make it as available as possible (in whatever form available) to those who don't.

Also, laced throughout your sarcasm are underlying messages that I find a bit disturbing. Are you saying that your wish is to be upheld by an "institution" owned and run by the oppressor? Do you expect to be rewarded for your efforts? Why is that so important to you? Where does that come from? And do you expect to applauded and cheered by people who DON'T know the true story of our people? Do you think it should be easy, like teaching students who "get it"? I'm not sure what your aspirations are in this Europeanized, twisted society, but most Black folks (if they so choose) have to fight to be "recognized by" THEM, and most of us exist barely above poverty levels. Their system designed it that way.

"...taking someone else's work and profiting from it for your own selfish needs" ??? Tell me how do you know that it is for selfish needs? Have you spoken to these terrible, thieving bootleggers? Have you visited their homes? Do you know who they have to support? What their alternatives are? I think you are speaking out of personal pain and turning it into prejudice (only my opinion), beginning to label and generalize.

"Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now." "Such entitlement!" ???

I don't see it as a matter of "entitlement" but a matter of enlightenment. Those who know... one thing, or a whole lot of things, is obligated to offset the damage that is being done to us—minute by minute—by sharing it with those who don't. The damage that makes our children choose white dolls over blacks and our adults jig and shuffle for cracka crumbs out of ignorance and self-hatred. The damage that embarrasses us, brings tears to our eyes, and tears at our hearts.

It truly saddens me that in this instance, above all, you see it as our people just wantin something for nothin. But I understand your pain.

[natturner187]

OOOH you returned to the dialog Brother Taalib
Peace,
No need for sarcasm,we should expect more harmonious tenor from our elders. I will not throw the daggers of condescendence and ridicule that you have aimed at YOUR BROTHERS and SISTERS.
This is a forum for us to put our views on the table and work collectively to find commonness for the sake of UNITY, not a 'hanging posse'.
You said 'I hope neither of you work until you lose your vision, researching the history of this world, our people and our contributions, then cannot afford eye surgery because your own people won't purchase your work; be marginalized by the institution that employs you; be denied tenure because you are exposing their b.s.; be ridiculed by your own people because you know the true-story; exist barely above poverty levels and still contribute to the uplift of your people; spend your own dollar to take this message of healing truth around the country to your people, even when they refuse to buy your articles, books, and tapes; then listen to some folk talk about you shouldn't even think about being reimbursed for your time and effort. Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now.'
Well you know what I have, and I'm sure many of the others here have too. We are an oppressed people, we all suffer and are victims of CAPITALISM. We were brought here to be exploited. Although we are not in chains , we are still being exploited. Not only by krakkkas , but by those who have just a little bit more than we do, an UPPER CLASS.
Yes , I have been skipped over being sent out to work because I was not yt, but I still struggled in the streets and rallies for our people everyday for LOVE of OUR people. I've been to jail , busted in the head, had my bones broken by the beast, but I continue to struggle for OUR people. I don't even look at what I could have made money wise, I look at what I did and will continue to do until my last breath for OUR people. And whatever loses, is not important to me, because it is no different than what Malcolm,Harriet, Martin, Marcus, Huey, and so many others before us has done without asking for a dime.
Dr Clark gave the same way free from the heart, There was no one who took from him that took any part of his life. It was Capitalism that kills and cheats us each day while we point the finger at each other.
It is commendable that You have given of your time and abilities freely, we are proud of you. We hope you have all the best health to continue to do so.
Our youth seek Black Men to give , without seeking something in return. That is True Love, giving without seeking anything in return.
We are in a strange land without light and much confusion. We must embrace our own as allies if they seek to bring light to our nation. There are some who care not how they make a dollar, and will sell death and bring destruction to our people . Some of them can not be salvaged. But a simple street vendor or someone who posts a video on the internet is supposed to be our enemy ???
Take a deep breath Brother and take another look.
Like Brother Nzigha has said there are others who are really worthy of war, but not 'poor righteous teachers'.

[natturner187]

Peace Sista Kameelean,
Thank you for your under / overstanding and input to this dialog where we are trying to unify and find better ways to communicate and build with our people.
What you have brought to the table reflects some everyday realities that many of our masses have to deal with everyday.
Just like public libraries that loan out various types of materials from books to ,music to videos, some of us see the value of sharing and caring with our family , friends and extended family.
I will share an idea that I am not afraid to see' bootlegged'. If we could set up' Black libraries' in our communities that could have various material to be loaned out, or at least viewed in shops or such. Something like this would be a step toward self determination, collective work and responsibility, our creativity, purpose, faith and unity.
When I was coming up , there was a totally free place called 'The Muse'. Some of the finest Jazz musicians taught us for FREE. Some valuable information many of us have carried with us more than 30 years ago. But now for some reason, Too many of us can not do something unless their is a dollar attached.
yes I agree , each one teach not only 1, but a few. So many of our young would respond if we only talk to them with LOVE and RESPECT, instead of greed and contemp.
Thanks

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

Excuse my misuse of the language. My reading of the posts "appeared" to want to justify profiting off someone else's "labors". My position is this; not sharing the largess, no matter how minimal, is what I understand to be thievery.

"Also, laced throughout your sarcasm are underlying messages that I find a bit disturbing. Are you saying that your wish is to be upheld by an "institution" owned and run by the oppressor?"

No ma'am! I have been an independent community activist since 1967. My search for truth and Ourstory caused me to spend many years under personal tutelage and instruction. My desire to tell Ourstory to my family is what drove me to speak to as many people/groups as I could; especially in the Johannesburg West area where I grew up and reside, whether they were in amerikkkan institutions, or in the community setting of apartheid.

"Do you expect to be rewarded for your efforts?"

I have been rewarded! The children, brothers in prisons, and a few adults lives have been changed; their eyes opened a bit. Living on a bantustan in west michigan is oppression to its maximum. These Calvinists colonize the mind, almost thoroughly, and information does not flow, freely, in such an environment. I was a victim and became, slightly, awake. I knew it was my duty to "sound the alarm", and that is what I've been doing for the past 40 years. We are in a deep, dark, sleep, on my part of the plantation, and there are not too many voices in the chorus.

The work I do, and have done in the past, is what my reason was for coming to earth, this time; to fight for truth and justice for me and my "lost in the wilderness" family. After 400 years of toiling............ we must be awakened to who we are, where we are, and what we must do. All the great Afrikan scholars I've heard and read about, GAVE their time and talents to the uplift of their people. Most were never acknowledged by more than a few hundred Afrikans for their work, the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey excluded, and they suffered to get the word out, in print, or on tape. Since we stopped becoming Institution builders during the Maafa, they had nowhere to go to present this profound information to minds that could grasp the gravity of our deprivation. Therefore, they were compelled to go to the Institutions that existed to study, research and tell our story.

"Why is that so important to you? Where does that come from?"

It is important, to me, that we wake-up in this dream, figure out the "play, within the play" and find a way to free our grandchildren from the mental turmoil they will face, as did their progenitors, since they will reside in the "next version" of amerikkka! This comes from my reading of his-story of what he has done, is doing, and has planned for Afrikan people. The alarm must be sounded. Now, since we live in a economic-type world, we should be recompensed for what we bring to the "table", just as the production worker gets recompensed for the products they produce and bring to the "table".


"And do you expect to applauded and cheered by people who DON'T know the true story of our people? Do you think it should be easy, like teaching students who "get it"? I'm not sure what your aspirations are in this Europeanized, twisted society, but most Black folks (if they so choose) have to fight to be "recognized by" THEM, and most of us exist barely above poverty levels. Their system designed it that way".

1. NO
2. No
3. My aspirations are to "free the minds, bodies and spirits" of Afrikan peoples from this Yurugu mentality that encompasses us. I want my people to know is european mindset to not share the profits of both person's labor; the producer and the marketer. It just sounds fair and balanced to my no-longer europeanized mind. My reading of Ourstory, from the Ba Twa people, to the non-western Afrikans of today, tells me that SHARING is OUR WAY! I accept that story. Fair exchange, no robbery!

Please accept my sincere apologies for not understanding the plight of the saleman in not wanting to share the profits from "his labor". Having sold advertising for over 20 years, and managed other salespeople for another few years, I understand taking only a percentage off a sale. At first glance, using your european mind, it seems so unfair. I recognized that I was not the originator of the product, nor the producer/director/proprietor, just the saleman, so,I accepted that others in the chain also need to get paid for their efforts. I knew I was just the "final" link in the chain of getting a product to the end-user. It seemed fair to me, when I was younger.It still seems fair, today.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this forum. I do not apologize for stating that the scholar/author/producer of a work, even "works that benefit our family", must be paid, if anyone else gets paid. Way too many died paupers for us to continue the blatant disregard for their families welfare by those who choose to not share the profits off the originator's work. That just sounds so un-Afrikan.

Your post was much too long for an old non-typist to respond to, in-depth. I accept your critique in the spirit of Afrikan wholeness and will refrain from speaking about what I have "given". It matters not, what I have given, it is what happens to my people that is paramount.

Maat Hetep

Kweku

[Kameelean]

Peace elder,

In reading your reply I say YES... YES!... YES!!! and then we hit a brick wall.

I was in publishing for 15 years, so I'm familiar with the plight of the salesman and the world of advertising by association, and understand.

I think we just have a fundamental difference in the way we see things. You see the bootlegger as being self-serving, un-Afrikan, stealing food out of the mouths of the 'originator of the works' he sells. I see him as one of the few conscious brothas (in a land where he could have, statistically, been so much worse) trying to survive while offering his people information that is critical to the advancement of their unconscious/semi-conscious/conscious minds. You see that by living in an "economic-type world, we should be recompensed for what we bring to the table". I see that as Afrikan people we exist in a dualistic state. On the one hand we work to make money to pay for the ability to survive in this Europeanized societal system. On the other hand when it comes to our people, and work that we do to empower us as a people—especially information—I just don't see needing to be compensated in the same way, if at all.

I can only speak for myself, but no offense taken. I love the ability to have these types of discussions. I send you positive energy in the struggle to continue building a choir in your part of the plantation... I know it is a STRUGGLE!

Hetepu

Kameelean

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

Ok! The bootlegger should real ALL the profit from his effort to distribute someone else's work. I don't get it, however, I hear you. Why should he/she be compensated? Why don't they just "give it away" like some think the producer should be doing? What sets them apart? Oh, its "for the liberation of our people". Should he get into "some pther type of work where he can support his family" and volunteer to distribute this free message/work to his downtrodden brethren?

I've been involved in the struggle for the liberation of Afrikan people for a long time. I'm amazed that we can rationalize one Brotha profiting at another's loss. Oh, well, I guess I missed something in my edu-muncation process.

Peace and Blessings

A Bewildered Old School Warrior
Time to find the pasture/porch and sit down