Bootlegging: The Saga Continues..........Part 2

[natturner187]

Peace,
This is a follow up from a discussion that 'Minister8-Ball'sarted, but ended abruptly.
I am in the NYC area, and can tell you , many items are bootleg. Bootlegging has been around for a long time. Many things that are bl probably will slip under the radar of most keen eyes. China was found to be a recent manufacturer of bl products. Bootlegging usually exists because of the high cost or unavailability of a wanted item and in our communities, a way to have a somewhat clean hustle (as opposed to selling drugs, robbery, etc).
That being said is part of the dilemma that exists with this issue. The advent of the internet is now becoming more popular as a means of purchase ,compared to over 5 years ago.
As I thought about this discussion, I heard several points:
1- Our scholars/ leaders were being robbed of money from the sale of bl.
2- Vendors selling bl material were providing distribution and exposure that might not otherwise be attained by the sources of the original material.
3- Disunity and possible negative discord between the opposing sides.
I am a fairly new member to LIB, but have been involved with Black struggle for many many years. I am trained to listen to hear the question , and what are the motives for the question when one is raised. I thought it was interesting that this topic was addressed by some with a passion that should exist in our neighborhoods to correct some real critical issues, but instead, it seems to hint of a touch of crabs in a barrel. I myself am a musician, and a starving one at that (lol), but I can under/ overstand both views.
What comes to mind is that many vendors of bl products under sell products to stimulate sales, most do not sell especially dvds for the same high prices ($25 or more) as the legit dvds.
I heard the argument that scholars have studied extensively and etc,etc.
But most of them have degrees, and teach in universities, and do live lectures. Is that money not enough ?
I am not saying they should not have a right to make money, but many before these have spoken , and given us valuable lessons and even their lives for the liberation of our people. Many of our true leaders and our people have given of themselves, without seeking a dime, but may have asked for donations to make certain events possible. That is the true spirit of our Struggle. Harriet Tubman didn't charge folk to take them to freedom. She did it for the love of her people.
In Cuba, medical education is made free for even us here as Black folk, with the stipulation that we bring our skill back home and serve the poor amongst us.
1- Is it necessary to charge for information that is supposed to be liberating our people? Yes there must be some cost, but getting back to what I said about availability. If more people can afford products at a lower cost, then more vendors can purchase legit, and more of the masses can purchase, and we all profit. The sale of one item might bring less profit, but you still profit from having more buyers.
Some have posted names of people to create an atmosphere similar to that which preceded Malcolm X's assassination.
There are other more important issues our Brothers need to be going to war about, than with each other regarding bootlegging.
Peace

[natturner187]

Peace Brother Dan Tres Omi,
First let's define the word
BOOTLEG: to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization.
ILLICIT: not permitted : unlawful
UNLAWFUL: not lawful : illegal
ILLEGAL: not according to or authorized by law
OK if we go back about 150 years or so , it was illegal to teach slaves (that be us) to read.
Now you want to pose that it is illegal for US to teach US ???
'Bootleggers' are in fact street scholar /activist
You say King wasn't a scholar ???
Are you for real ?
SCHOLAR: :a person who attends a school or studies under a teacher : pupil
2 a: a person who has done advanced study in a special field b: a learned person.
What we are trying to do is get us to see things multi-dimensional.
Do the math: PROBLEM- ANALYSIS- SOLUTION
PROBLEM- We are an oppressed people, because of Capitalism, which also uses racism to oppress us. Bootleggers are a problem for 'SCHOLARS'.
ANALYSIS- ( In this particular) Lack of information / consciousness amongst our Black masses, the need for survival (food , health care and shelter). There are those who HAVE, and those who have NOT. Dvds and Cds are produced by 'scholars'. The products (cds,dvds, literature) are usually priced at an amount that is beyond the means of the masses. One person can not be in more than 1 place at a time. Many people (who also need to make a living) can be in many places, 1) making products more available, 2) giving an honest means of income for many, 3) helping to raise the consciousness of the masses. IF BOOTLEGGERS can reproduce items and sell them cheaper, WHY CAN NOT the 'SCHOLARS' ???
It would seem that if one was TRULY concerned with the UPLIFTMENT of OUR people, Why can they not see that : 1) items sold at a lesser price will make item more accessible to the masses, and could increase overall sales, 2) be a means of creating noble employment for many brothers and sisters, 3) INSPIRE a NEW MOVEMENT for change and UPliftment of OUR BLACK NATION.
SOLUTION- IF 'Scholars' can work with (vendors) 'Street Scholar /Activist' i.e. make arrangements to sell them products at a nominal price, In the process :
1) SCHOLARS get paid, and make more sales
2) Vendors can continue to distribute information to the masses
3) The masses are uplifted, and Our Nation prospers.
Actually it is between the Vendors and "Scholars" to make the choice.
What do you think ?

[Dan Tres Omi]

Peace

I agree with your points.
I do feel that brothers like Kwesi and Valentine sell their DVDs and CDs at high prices. I have told them that before. I have pointed out to them that they are missing out a good number of people who need to hear their information.

HOWEVER
what I am finding on these posts is that those who defend Bootlegging (i am not saying you are one of them) are not bringing up the point that those scholars are charging too much money. Instead they are saying that scholars shouldn't charge for their work. They are making claims that some of these scholars have tenured positions at universities when they don't. They are also saying that Bootleggers are NOT stealing.

That's the issue I have.

[natturner187]

Peace DTO,
I have been to some lectures, and paid, and some that were free. I see videos for sale, at different prices by different people stores etc.
I do agree that if someone is espousing that the info they have is important, and I think OURstory is, it should be made easily available (PRICE, & LOCATION (point of purchase).
I am not going to continue to call it 'Bootlegging' , because of the definition of the word, that I replied to you before in this dialog.
Some make a hustle out of giving out info. Is that fair to the hungry minds who's pocket are empty ???
You failed to also look at the idea that I posed, and the simple idea of Donation. The word donation (dough & NATION) how convenient.
I have been to many rallies where donations were collected to provide for a guest speaker, and never saw anyone get mad that they did not get enough money. EACH according to their means. Not each give me $25 or whatever or you s..t out of luck.
Vendors are not stealing they are trying to do some thing that is helping others and it is not taking from, as if the product was there for a reasonable price by whoever, the masses would buy it.

[Charles Stephenson]

Stop jusifying theft. If you did not produce the work it is theft, if you did not have permission by the producer of the work to sell it, it's theft. I have heard several workable solutions to this dilimma, why not start there and work something out where everyone can benefit. This seems to be a very devisive issue. That is dangerous. Hotep

[natturner187]

Peace Charles Stephenson ,
Thanks for joining the dialog . The last 4 days we have dealt with several issues, and some possible solutions. If you raed all the replies this should be clear.
Question : if your child is dying and your neighbor has a cure (information,knowledge, that can advance Black folks condition) but refuses , or tells you he wants $100 for it, and you do not have $100. Do you let you child die, or do you TAKE (buy bootleg) what you need to save your child's life?
That said, go back to all that has been said in this discussion , and take a deep breath and reply.

[Kameelean]

I have several comments. The first is to the sistah, Aisha. In my experience, the brothas selling bootleg CONSCIOUS videos are very knowledgeable about the information they are selling and have very definite, clear-thinking assessments and comments about the materials. They have their own thought formulations about the material they sell. If it were just a hustle, they wouldn't care and would only focus on the money and making a deal to sell as many as possible. These brothas are NOT about any "bling". The blinging brothas I've come across don't know anything about these videos or the "scholars" who share/sell/make profit off of this knowledge.

Also, the people I know who purchase these lower priced copies do so because they cannot find or afford the other, and they buy bootleg across the board—mainstream blockbusters as well. They are always trying to cut corners to save what little money they have.

Some posts have seem filled with anger. My comment to you is this: Our suppressors did everything they could to prevent us from gaining knowledge (of self and of the world). In many ways, they still do.

Bootleggers reproduce materials and sell to the public for a lower price than the original source. If you want to prevent the masses from gaining free (via bootleggers) access to the information that YOU created, produced and wish to "control" the sales of... I think you should do that.

However, don't join the oppressors in a self-assigned crusade to prevent the public—and your own people—from posting videos on YouTube who are doing so, not for profit, but to share information and get the word out to those who would otherwise not know this knowledge existed.

This smacks of censorship, a tool that the White Power structure uses to keep the public uninformed. Why on earth would you choose to emulate this behaviour?

This is a tragic disconnection from our Afrikan nature that is to share knowledge as in our passed on saying "each one teach one". It is our European, brainwashed minds and assimilated souls that allow us to take on the characteristics and behaviours of our oppressors.

Finally, I completely agree with the brotha Manu_heru who said it beautifully:
"knowledge is free! there is no scholar who has originated any of this so called knowledge! we all build off of one another... we all stand on the shoulders of the giants before/beneath us! charging for knowledge is a european concept! scholars should only take donations!!!"

[manu_heru]

give thanks kameelean, for your eloquent offering!

we must get back to our afrikan mentality of sharing and giving. we and ours as opposed to me and mine. this is where true power is hidden! the power of one!

give thanks brotha nat, for re-opening this important discussion.

brotha taalib kweku el amin and brotha charles stephenson claimed that our sons and daughters peddling discounted and bootlegged scholarly dvds etc are not in alignment of maat.

well, i would ask the two of you brother's to reconsider from the perspective that the bootleggers of this type of material are not extraordinary role models for out youth and COMPLETELY in maat, for the following reasons:

• they are devoted to the positive development of others! this is a most selfless service!!
• they are pursuing a purposeful life rather than selfish or materialistic!
• they are rejecting the modes of this degraded society (capitalism)
• they are instruments of order restoration (via the dissemination of scholarly works that aid in such)
• by making these resources available to the poor/strugglin'/etc they are creating a balance that does not exist in this classed society.
• they teach the truth
• they are poor righteous teachers
• they are givers rather than takers

and as has been stated many times in this discussion, there is no evidence that bootlegging is at all stealing, no evidence that is subtracts from a scholars profits,(the opposite may be true - advertising), and if it does, great! capitalism is evil as it is the very fuel for oppression!

we must get back to our afrikan mentality of sharing and giving. we and ours as opposed to me and mine. this is where true power is hidden! the power of one!
noone can own another person (slavery), noone can own land (colonialism/capitalism), and noone can own thoughts/ideas! intellectual property is a self contradiction, it is an oxymoron, it has never existed. there is only one source. one source!

~manu~

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

No comment! I'll let the experts speak and you have.

I hope neither of you work until you lose your vision, researching the history of this world, our people and our contributions, then cannot afford eye surgery because your own people won't purchase your work; be marginalized by the institution that employs you; be denied tenure because you are exposing their b.s.; be ridiculed by your own people because you know the true-story; exist barely above poverty levels and still contribute to the uplift of your people; spend your own dollar to take this message of healing truth around the country to your people, even when they refuse to buy your artlcles, books, and tapes; then listen to some folk talk about you shouldn't even think about being reimbursed for your time and effort. Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now.

Such entitlement! Must be something special. All the flowery language in the world cannot cover up this deceit.

In the future, leave my name out of your discussions. I see the world through a different set of lenses and I'll go out believing that taking someone else's work and profiting from it for your own selfish needs, and not paying for it, is thievery.

I have given over 100 lectures for free and I'm on the low end for African-centered lecturers. I edited 5 books for different people and never asked for a dime because we knew the message needed to be available, yet knowing our people would be hesitant to buy the books. We've given away hundreds of copies of various books to students whose parents would not step up and help their child advance their knowledge of themselves and their people.

To you be your ways and to me be mine. I don't steal from Afrikans! If I sell someone's product(s), which I have done for over 3 decades, I pay them their asking price. Fair exchange, no robbery!

Peace go with you!

[manu_heru]

brotha taalib,

i respect you and your work greatly! in fact, it is a great honor for you be grace us with your presence and wisdom!! as you can see, i am only a youth, a student, constantly learning from elders such as yourself.

in fact, we do not differ in views so much. i simply advocate fairness/balance by paying what one can... i would not advocate that everyone seek only bootlegged materials. only that bootlegging has its place, and its own space in certain environments -- in a non-harmful way.

blessings,

~manu~

[natturner187]

Peace Manu,
As you reiterate the original intention of this discussion was / is to give our brothers and sisters another view that might be overlooked because of closed dimensional view of our common plight in the belly of the beast.
Our people are in the streets everyday, and street vendors are bringing light from the mountain , and delivering it to the masses in the valley. The vendors are obviously effective at what they do , otherwise why the big fuss. Once again, as you have suggested , if there can be a meeting of the minds, everyone of us can benifit. The producers get more sales, the vendor (bootlegger) gets to purchase legit from the producer, the prices are affordable to the masses, Our community grows from the 'Outformation'.
Thank you so much for your focus and input.

[Kameelean]

Brotha El Amin,

100+ free lectures, books, etc. is a noble contribution to our people.

Your end statement speaks to some of damage that has been done to our people. Why are many of us hesitant to buy books that deliver positive messages about our people? Why are many parents not helping their their children know themselves? Was it always like this? What has happened to us and why? (rhetorical)

Brotha Nat spoke of free materials at libraries. However even if there were great libraries filled with knowledge about the history, accomplishments and struggles of Afrikan people, how many of us would be lining up to get in? Only those who are conscious—the "choir"? This is evidence of the damage that has been done TO our people and exactly why it is critical that those of us who know constantly push the message and make it as available as possible (in whatever form available) to those who don't.

Also, laced throughout your sarcasm are underlying messages that I find a bit disturbing. Are you saying that your wish is to be upheld by an "institution" owned and run by the oppressor? Do you expect to be rewarded for your efforts? Why is that so important to you? Where does that come from? And do you expect to applauded and cheered by people who DON'T know the true story of our people? Do you think it should be easy, like teaching students who "get it"? I'm not sure what your aspirations are in this Europeanized, twisted society, but most Black folks (if they so choose) have to fight to be "recognized by" THEM, and most of us exist barely above poverty levels. Their system designed it that way.

"...taking someone else's work and profiting from it for your own selfish needs" ??? Tell me how do you know that it is for selfish needs? Have you spoken to these terrible, thieving bootleggers? Have you visited their homes? Do you know who they have to support? What their alternatives are? I think you are speaking out of personal pain and turning it into prejudice (only my opinion), beginning to label and generalize.

"Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now." "Such entitlement!" ???

I don't see it as a matter of "entitlement" but a matter of enlightenment. Those who know... one thing, or a whole lot of things, is obligated to offset the damage that is being done to us—minute by minute—by sharing it with those who don't. The damage that makes our children choose white dolls over blacks and our adults jig and shuffle for cracka crumbs out of ignorance and self-hatred. The damage that embarrasses us, brings tears to our eyes, and tears at our hearts.

It truly saddens me that in this instance, above all, you see it as our people just wantin something for nothin. But I understand your pain.

[natturner187]

OOOH you returned to the dialog Brother Taalib
Peace,
No need for sarcasm,we should expect more harmonious tenor from our elders. I will not throw the daggers of condescendence and ridicule that you have aimed at YOUR BROTHERS and SISTERS.
This is a forum for us to put our views on the table and work collectively to find commonness for the sake of UNITY, not a 'hanging posse'.
You said 'I hope neither of you work until you lose your vision, researching the history of this world, our people and our contributions, then cannot afford eye surgery because your own people won't purchase your work; be marginalized by the institution that employs you; be denied tenure because you are exposing their b.s.; be ridiculed by your own people because you know the true-story; exist barely above poverty levels and still contribute to the uplift of your people; spend your own dollar to take this message of healing truth around the country to your people, even when they refuse to buy your articles, books, and tapes; then listen to some folk talk about you shouldn't even think about being reimbursed for your time and effort. Sounds like new-jack slavery to me; only non-whites want your free labor, now.'
Well you know what I have, and I'm sure many of the others here have too. We are an oppressed people, we all suffer and are victims of CAPITALISM. We were brought here to be exploited. Although we are not in chains , we are still being exploited. Not only by krakkkas , but by those who have just a little bit more than we do, an UPPER CLASS.
Yes , I have been skipped over being sent out to work because I was not yt, but I still struggled in the streets and rallies for our people everyday for LOVE of OUR people. I've been to jail , busted in the head, had my bones broken by the beast, but I continue to struggle for OUR people. I don't even look at what I could have made money wise, I look at what I did and will continue to do until my last breath for OUR people. And whatever loses, is not important to me, because it is no different than what Malcolm,Harriet, Martin, Marcus, Huey, and so many others before us has done without asking for a dime.
Dr Clark gave the same way free from the heart, There was no one who took from him that took any part of his life. It was Capitalism that kills and cheats us each day while we point the finger at each other.
It is commendable that You have given of your time and abilities freely, we are proud of you. We hope you have all the best health to continue to do so.
Our youth seek Black Men to give , without seeking something in return. That is True Love, giving without seeking anything in return.
We are in a strange land without light and much confusion. We must embrace our own as allies if they seek to bring light to our nation. There are some who care not how they make a dollar, and will sell death and bring destruction to our people . Some of them can not be salvaged. But a simple street vendor or someone who posts a video on the internet is supposed to be our enemy ???
Take a deep breath Brother and take another look.
Like Brother Nzigha has said there are others who are really worthy of war, but not 'poor righteous teachers'.