Bootlegging: The Saga Continues..........Part 2

[natturner187]

Peace,
This is a follow up from a discussion that 'Minister8-Ball'sarted, but ended abruptly.
I am in the NYC area, and can tell you , many items are bootleg. Bootlegging has been around for a long time. Many things that are bl probably will slip under the radar of most keen eyes. China was found to be a recent manufacturer of bl products. Bootlegging usually exists because of the high cost or unavailability of a wanted item and in our communities, a way to have a somewhat clean hustle (as opposed to selling drugs, robbery, etc).
That being said is part of the dilemma that exists with this issue. The advent of the internet is now becoming more popular as a means of purchase ,compared to over 5 years ago.
As I thought about this discussion, I heard several points:
1- Our scholars/ leaders were being robbed of money from the sale of bl.
2- Vendors selling bl material were providing distribution and exposure that might not otherwise be attained by the sources of the original material.
3- Disunity and possible negative discord between the opposing sides.
I am a fairly new member to LIB, but have been involved with Black struggle for many many years. I am trained to listen to hear the question , and what are the motives for the question when one is raised. I thought it was interesting that this topic was addressed by some with a passion that should exist in our neighborhoods to correct some real critical issues, but instead, it seems to hint of a touch of crabs in a barrel. I myself am a musician, and a starving one at that (lol), but I can under/ overstand both views.
What comes to mind is that many vendors of bl products under sell products to stimulate sales, most do not sell especially dvds for the same high prices ($25 or more) as the legit dvds.
I heard the argument that scholars have studied extensively and etc,etc.
But most of them have degrees, and teach in universities, and do live lectures. Is that money not enough ?
I am not saying they should not have a right to make money, but many before these have spoken , and given us valuable lessons and even their lives for the liberation of our people. Many of our true leaders and our people have given of themselves, without seeking a dime, but may have asked for donations to make certain events possible. That is the true spirit of our Struggle. Harriet Tubman didn't charge folk to take them to freedom. She did it for the love of her people.
In Cuba, medical education is made free for even us here as Black folk, with the stipulation that we bring our skill back home and serve the poor amongst us.
1- Is it necessary to charge for information that is supposed to be liberating our people? Yes there must be some cost, but getting back to what I said about availability. If more people can afford products at a lower cost, then more vendors can purchase legit, and more of the masses can purchase, and we all profit. The sale of one item might bring less profit, but you still profit from having more buyers.
Some have posted names of people to create an atmosphere similar to that which preceded Malcolm X's assassination.
There are other more important issues our Brothers need to be going to war about, than with each other regarding bootlegging.
Peace

[natturner187]

Peace Sista Kameelean,
Thank you for your under / overstanding and input to this dialog where we are trying to unify and find better ways to communicate and build with our people.
What you have brought to the table reflects some everyday realities that many of our masses have to deal with everyday.
Just like public libraries that loan out various types of materials from books to ,music to videos, some of us see the value of sharing and caring with our family , friends and extended family.
I will share an idea that I am not afraid to see' bootlegged'. If we could set up' Black libraries' in our communities that could have various material to be loaned out, or at least viewed in shops or such. Something like this would be a step toward self determination, collective work and responsibility, our creativity, purpose, faith and unity.
When I was coming up , there was a totally free place called 'The Muse'. Some of the finest Jazz musicians taught us for FREE. Some valuable information many of us have carried with us more than 30 years ago. But now for some reason, Too many of us can not do something unless their is a dollar attached.
yes I agree , each one teach not only 1, but a few. So many of our young would respond if we only talk to them with LOVE and RESPECT, instead of greed and contemp.
Thanks

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

Excuse my misuse of the language. My reading of the posts "appeared" to want to justify profiting off someone else's "labors". My position is this; not sharing the largess, no matter how minimal, is what I understand to be thievery.

"Also, laced throughout your sarcasm are underlying messages that I find a bit disturbing. Are you saying that your wish is to be upheld by an "institution" owned and run by the oppressor?"

No ma'am! I have been an independent community activist since 1967. My search for truth and Ourstory caused me to spend many years under personal tutelage and instruction. My desire to tell Ourstory to my family is what drove me to speak to as many people/groups as I could; especially in the Johannesburg West area where I grew up and reside, whether they were in amerikkkan institutions, or in the community setting of apartheid.

"Do you expect to be rewarded for your efforts?"

I have been rewarded! The children, brothers in prisons, and a few adults lives have been changed; their eyes opened a bit. Living on a bantustan in west michigan is oppression to its maximum. These Calvinists colonize the mind, almost thoroughly, and information does not flow, freely, in such an environment. I was a victim and became, slightly, awake. I knew it was my duty to "sound the alarm", and that is what I've been doing for the past 40 years. We are in a deep, dark, sleep, on my part of the plantation, and there are not too many voices in the chorus.

The work I do, and have done in the past, is what my reason was for coming to earth, this time; to fight for truth and justice for me and my "lost in the wilderness" family. After 400 years of toiling............ we must be awakened to who we are, where we are, and what we must do. All the great Afrikan scholars I've heard and read about, GAVE their time and talents to the uplift of their people. Most were never acknowledged by more than a few hundred Afrikans for their work, the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey excluded, and they suffered to get the word out, in print, or on tape. Since we stopped becoming Institution builders during the Maafa, they had nowhere to go to present this profound information to minds that could grasp the gravity of our deprivation. Therefore, they were compelled to go to the Institutions that existed to study, research and tell our story.

"Why is that so important to you? Where does that come from?"

It is important, to me, that we wake-up in this dream, figure out the "play, within the play" and find a way to free our grandchildren from the mental turmoil they will face, as did their progenitors, since they will reside in the "next version" of amerikkka! This comes from my reading of his-story of what he has done, is doing, and has planned for Afrikan people. The alarm must be sounded. Now, since we live in a economic-type world, we should be recompensed for what we bring to the "table", just as the production worker gets recompensed for the products they produce and bring to the "table".


"And do you expect to applauded and cheered by people who DON'T know the true story of our people? Do you think it should be easy, like teaching students who "get it"? I'm not sure what your aspirations are in this Europeanized, twisted society, but most Black folks (if they so choose) have to fight to be "recognized by" THEM, and most of us exist barely above poverty levels. Their system designed it that way".

1. NO
2. No
3. My aspirations are to "free the minds, bodies and spirits" of Afrikan peoples from this Yurugu mentality that encompasses us. I want my people to know is european mindset to not share the profits of both person's labor; the producer and the marketer. It just sounds fair and balanced to my no-longer europeanized mind. My reading of Ourstory, from the Ba Twa people, to the non-western Afrikans of today, tells me that SHARING is OUR WAY! I accept that story. Fair exchange, no robbery!

Please accept my sincere apologies for not understanding the plight of the saleman in not wanting to share the profits from "his labor". Having sold advertising for over 20 years, and managed other salespeople for another few years, I understand taking only a percentage off a sale. At first glance, using your european mind, it seems so unfair. I recognized that I was not the originator of the product, nor the producer/director/proprietor, just the saleman, so,I accepted that others in the chain also need to get paid for their efforts. I knew I was just the "final" link in the chain of getting a product to the end-user. It seemed fair to me, when I was younger.It still seems fair, today.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this forum. I do not apologize for stating that the scholar/author/producer of a work, even "works that benefit our family", must be paid, if anyone else gets paid. Way too many died paupers for us to continue the blatant disregard for their families welfare by those who choose to not share the profits off the originator's work. That just sounds so un-Afrikan.

Your post was much too long for an old non-typist to respond to, in-depth. I accept your critique in the spirit of Afrikan wholeness and will refrain from speaking about what I have "given". It matters not, what I have given, it is what happens to my people that is paramount.

Maat Hetep

Kweku

[Kameelean]

Peace elder,

In reading your reply I say YES... YES!... YES!!! and then we hit a brick wall.

I was in publishing for 15 years, so I'm familiar with the plight of the salesman and the world of advertising by association, and understand.

I think we just have a fundamental difference in the way we see things. You see the bootlegger as being self-serving, un-Afrikan, stealing food out of the mouths of the 'originator of the works' he sells. I see him as one of the few conscious brothas (in a land where he could have, statistically, been so much worse) trying to survive while offering his people information that is critical to the advancement of their unconscious/semi-conscious/conscious minds. You see that by living in an "economic-type world, we should be recompensed for what we bring to the table". I see that as Afrikan people we exist in a dualistic state. On the one hand we work to make money to pay for the ability to survive in this Europeanized societal system. On the other hand when it comes to our people, and work that we do to empower us as a people—especially information—I just don't see needing to be compensated in the same way, if at all.

I can only speak for myself, but no offense taken. I love the ability to have these types of discussions. I send you positive energy in the struggle to continue building a choir in your part of the plantation... I know it is a STRUGGLE!

Hetepu

Kameelean

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

Ok! The bootlegger should real ALL the profit from his effort to distribute someone else's work. I don't get it, however, I hear you. Why should he/she be compensated? Why don't they just "give it away" like some think the producer should be doing? What sets them apart? Oh, its "for the liberation of our people". Should he get into "some pther type of work where he can support his family" and volunteer to distribute this free message/work to his downtrodden brethren?

I've been involved in the struggle for the liberation of Afrikan people for a long time. I'm amazed that we can rationalize one Brotha profiting at another's loss. Oh, well, I guess I missed something in my edu-muncation process.

Peace and Blessings

A Bewildered Old School Warrior
Time to find the pasture/porch and sit down

[Karl Martin]

Thank you...

A lecturer once said "negros think as far as they can see...."

As an economist I'm faced with many nations who use hubble telescopes for their 'vision'....

bootleggers would make mr magoo's vision deemed 20/20

[natturner187]

Peace Mr Karl M,
Basically for the last 4 days , we have beaten a dead horse with this discussion, and looked at it intelligently and come up with some possible solutions, Now you return to bless us again with your profound ' Mr magoo wisdom'.

[Karl Martin]

As I said I believe you and I may have reached an impass where others and I may have not...

Hotep

[Karl Martin]

It wans't the sell check that was the problme..

someone 'bootleeged' my glasses...

and now I'm suffering from a case of 'magooism'...haha

Hotep

K

[natturner187]

Peace Brother Taalib,
I Don't know if you are trying to avoid my reply to you, but I will attempt again.
You say :'especially in the Johannesburg West area where I grew up and reside'
So you are not from here in amerikkka ?
Paul Mooney the comedian said something that was kind of profound. He said 'I'm mad at you Africans........................cause when we here in amerikkka were stolen from the motherland , the Africans on the motherland did never came and get us'.
Don't get me wrong most of us here in amerikkka love our brothers and sisters from the motherland. But do not come here and try to tell us what to do like you are some expert on Black problems. Your help is welcome, but humble yourself at our door.
The works you say you have done sound noble and apploudable, but their are many unsung heroes amongst us.
Our conditions as a people is CRITICAL , and their are countless issues that effect us. But the bottom line is the Masses are more important than the few who think they deserve 'SPECIAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT or TREATMENT'
FREE THE LAND
FREE INFORMATION
For the few negroes who have money or something that can help our people , and hold back from helping (not just crumbs) our people, they are like a rich man who eats a big plate of food in the face of a starving poor man. People like Oprah or Bill Cosby who have plenty, but get on tv and talk s..t about Black folk but do nothing to really make a difference. A donation here and there, little nothings compared to what they have. They are YURGU. Their is a saying , 'to whom much is given much is expected'
So let's stop crying over Capitalistic ways.

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

"I Don't know if you are trying to avoid my reply to you, but I will attempt again.
You say :'especially in the Johannesburg West area where I grew up and reside'
So you are not from here in amerikkka ?" I grew up in Grand Rapids, MI, home of the Calvinists. I decided not to reply because we are on different planes/planets.

"But do not come here and try to tell us what to do like you are some expert on Black problems. Your help is welcome, but humble yourself at our door.
The works you say you have done sound noble and apploudable, but their are many unsung heroes amongst us."

Look young man, I've been actively involved in the struggle since the Panthers and the RNA were formulated in the 60s. I have taken our message throughout the Midwest, into the schools, prisons and neighborhoods, to help awaken us from this deep sleep.

"Our conditions as a people is CRITICAL , and their are countless issues that effect us. But the bottom line is the Masses are more important than the few who think they deserve 'SPECIAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT or TREATMENT'"

This is a strange statement. Who said anyone deserved "special treatment"? I believe you just want to argue an dI do not argue with intellectuals. By the way, I don't consider Jesse, Bill, Oprah, nor the 35,000 millionaires you mentioned to be Afrikan-centered scholars. Most scholars would call them tools of the capitalists.

I understand your disregard for capitalism. Actually, I believe I share that view. However, all attempts to earn a living are not capitalism.

Since you and several others KNOW that taking the work of someone else and re-selling it without some type of a contract is ok, fine. I chalk that up to a mindset I have not attained. I hope it works for you.

I'm out! This is way over my humble head to contemplate. Good selling!

[natturner187]

Peace Taalib,
I see you are off and running again.
YOU said
'This is a strange statement. Who said anyone deserved 'special treatment'? I believe you just want to argue an dI do not argue with intellectuals.'
You lost me Brother, please make it plain.
Once again you bring vagueness and avoidance of specific questions to you and your augment. Maybe this is why you do not get a favorable response from those you claim to try to teach.
'Selling' ??? I am not a vendor, what is your point ?

[Taalib Kweku El Amin]

I do not agree that the seller of a product is the only one that should get paid. I guess this is the wrong forum to express that view.

My momma taught me to be fair, be just and share. It just seemed that letting the bootlegger of someone else's work off the hook, in terms of paying for his product that he did not originate, was not in accord with my understanding of Afrikanness. All the other statements seemed to get mixed in with that view.

I seek no followers and its just my view, my position. I choose not to agrue the point any further, in the spirit of Maat.

Peace Go With You!

No need to reply. Respect!